Great comments.

Thanks!! :0)

- Faith

What is disturbing about this situation is that Nancy has commented several times about telling Amy over the past several years that she needed to get her act together, because her parents would not provide her with a safety net after age 18. The responses to this type of attitude are to either take on the challenge, or withdraw. You took up the challenge, Amy has withdrawn. Her mother gave up on her years ago, and Amy clearly knows this. She has chosen to give up on her own life, which is a tragedy. Her mother chose to give up her as well, which is a crime.

Good thoughts, and I agree with you & Nancy. My RAD son is almost ten, and is a very smart boy. He still does not get the concept of cause and effect, but he does know what is right and what is wrong. I do what I can to get him prepared for the real world, but he still has to show up for his own life. He knows that Mom gives consequences. Someday, he'll have that "A ha!" moment. I pray he has it before he is an adult, but he may not. We as parents cannot beat ourselves up for bringing our children to a certain point. At some point, they will have to be let go.

I'd also have to add that the intense dislike that emanates from every word Nancy says about Amy.... so sarcastic and dismissive. Can she find a single good thing to say about her? Can she even think a single good thing about her? She has rejected her entirely.

"She has chosen to give up on her own life, which is a tragedy. Her mother chose to give up her as well, which is a crime."

I do not believe that Amy has given up on her own life. I say this because I know MANY adult survivors of childhood abuse who have behaved like Amy is now. From what I have observed from other adult abuse survivors, they are angry at the world, and they believe that world "owes" them something to compensate for what they have suffered. This is simply not true, and they have to find their own way through this.

These people are not incapable of taking care of themselves: They are punishing the world for what they have suffered. This is a very unhealthy place to be emotionally, and bankrolling this nosedive is only going to make it last longer. (I will share my own story about a close relative who did this tomorrow -- her nosedive lasted for half of her life and cost all of us relatives tens of thousands of dollars in the process.)

As for Nancy giving up on her . . . I think Nancy's post about bringing her dinner shows that is not the case. When you have a relative who is this irresponsible, you walk a fine line between enabling and showing kindness. I continue to do this today w/my close relative. If I could write her a large check and fix all of her problems, I would. But I know from experience that this will exacerbate the problem. She has to find her own way. She is an adult.

- Faith

"We as parents cannot beat ourselves up for bringing our children to a certain point. At some point, they will have to be let go."

I agree. That point is adulthood. I had significantly less emotional support than Amy does, and I found a way to do it. If I can do it, then she can, too. And when she does, she will take pride in knowing that she found her own way.

- Faith

"I'd also have to add that the intense dislike that emanates from every word Nancy says about Amy.... so sarcastic and dismissive. Can she find a single good thing to say about her? Can she even think a single good thing about her? She has rejected her entirely."

What I read in Nancy's posts is frustration, not with who Amy is but in knowing that even all of the love and energy that Nancy put into her child will not spare Amy from pain. It hurts to watch your loved one make one bad choice after another and see the consequences coming, knowing that your loved one will be hurt. I have been living this for 10 years, not with my child but with a close relative.

Just for the record -- I did not choose to write about this topic to carry on the "love or hate Nancy" debate. I am focusing on the ISSUE. I believe it is insulting to assume that someone who has been tramatized does not have the intelligence to figure out that she must pay her bills or lose services. I am one of those "traumatized people," so those kinds of sweeping judgments are an insult to me, and I want that addressed. My other purpose is to share the life lessons that I have learned while living with an irresponsible adult relative throughout my life. That's the topic of my next post. :0)

- Faith

"I believe it is insulting to assume that someone who has been tramatized does not have the intelligence to figure out that she must pay her bills or lose services. I am one of those "traumatized people," so those kinds of sweeping judgments are an insult to me, and I want that addressed."

Has anyone actually said that this had anything to do with intelligence? It is an emotional response to a situation. Your response was not the same as Amy's. How lucky for you that you had the ability to make a better choice. Does Amy have the same abilities that you have? Does she share your genes and your background? Did your mothers get similar pre-natal care? If we want to talk about sweeping judgements, saying that Amy "should have" responded the same way that you did, which seems to be the jist of your post, seems pretty sweeping.

"How lucky for you that you had the ability to make a better choice."

Let me assure you that the only "luck" I have ever had in my life is bad luck. I was not "lucky" enough to be born into a loving home. I was not "lucky" enough to live a childhood without being repeatedly traumatized. I was not "lucky" enough to be rescued from that life and have a loving adoptive mother, or any other loving adult for that matter, offer to give me the nurturing that I needed. I had to find my own way through life without the advantages that Amy and other "lucky" adopted children have been provided by having someone -- ANYONE -- give a d@#$ about me as a child.

I do not appreciate the tone that you are taking with me. You do not know the details of my life. You could not begin to understand the level of pain that I have suffered unless you, too, spent the vast majority of your childhood being raped and tortured by the adults in your life who were supposed to love you. There is not one thing about my life that is the result of "luck."

You want to talk about "emotional responses" to situations? Try living a life filled with flashbacks, night terrors, and feeling isolated from everyone around you. Try having to gauge every instinct you have to determine whether you can trust it because so much of what motivates you in your life has been tainted by the sadistic actions of others. Try living your life in survival mode because you cannot let your guard down enough to ever feel safe in any setting. I have LIVED this. I GET it. Unless you have also suffered deep trauma as a child, I understand Amy far better than you do.

"If we want to talk about sweeping judgements, saying that Amy "should have" responded the same way that you did, which seems to be the jist of your post, seems pretty sweeping."

At no point did I say that Amy should respond the way that I did. You are reading in messages that are simply not there. What I said is that Amy, like me and thousands of other abuse survivors, have the CAPACITY and ABILITY to make good choices. To treat an adult trauma survivor like a helpless child indefinitely is insulting and damaging to her.

I would appreciate it if your future comments would focus on the topic and not on making judgments about me. While I can take it because I was forced to develop a very thick skin at the age of three, I would appreciate you showing a little more respect in your comments. While I disagreed with things that you wrote in your prior two comments, I was very respectful in my responses. It is possible to respectfully disagree without slinging mud.

- Faith

I'll stick by my first opinion - you were lucky. Lucky that you realized that you had to either sink or swim, and you chose to swim. You weren't so far gone that you chose to completely give up. And you are lucky in that you have enough resiliency to rebound after trauma, and enough determination to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. There have certainly been enough studies done on children who have suffered from trauma, and analysis on the differences between those who are able to overcome their past trauma and those who aren't. You were lucky. You had the ability to face your trauma and overcome it. Does Amy have this same ability?

Fenyimom,

I will ask you a second time to please focus on the ISSUE and not make this discussion about me. I am not the irresponsible adult who is expecting other people to give me adult freedoms while shouldering the burden of my adult responsibilities for me.

"Lucky that you realized that you had to either sink or swim, and you chose to swim."

The only way to realize that you must sink or swim is to be put in the position of sinking or swimming. How can any adult know if he can sink or swim if he never takes off his floaties?

Few things make me angrier than being told that I was "lucky." Luck had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with how I turned out. Who I am is a result of a series of CHOICES. I am a product of both terrible nature AND nurture, and yet I rose above this, not because I was "lucky" but because I worked very hard. To say that I am just "lucky" completely overlooks all of the hard work I have done to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps." If you want to continue having this misperception of me, that is your choice, but I would appreciate your not saying this to me again. It only makes me angry and puts up a filter, preventing me from hearing what you have to say. I want to discuss the issues, not your opinion on how "lucky" I am to have lived the life that I have.

"You had the ability to face your trauma and overcome it. Does Amy have this same ability?"

Yes -- ALL abuse survivors have this same ability. The question is whether they are willing to make the effort to heal and learn how to live successfully in the world. I know many abuse survivors who were not "lucky" enough to have loving adoptive parents. They had no loving adult to guide them into adulthood, and yet they found a way to do it. I also know several abuse survivors, including my close relative who I will write about in my next post, who started out just like Amy, except they had NO non-abusive adults in their lives to turn to. They, too, found a way to become responsible after other well-meaning people stopped funding their irresponsibility. I have had several "former Amy's" tell me to take this position with my relative because it is the only way that they were able to realize that they needed to take responsibility for their own lives. Some go so far as to say that it is abusive to keep an adult dependent upon you -- and this is being said by people who were once adults begging their relatives to foot all of their bills.

From what I understand, you are an adoptive mother of a RAD child. (My apologies if I am wrong.) You have every right to make a different decision with your own child if it comes to that. I am just sharing what I have learned through my own experiences, both as a trauma survivor and as a close relative of a formerly irresponsible adult abuse survivor. Whether you choose to hear what I have to say is up to you.

- Faith

One more point -- Abuse survivors are STRONG. They faced insurmountable odds at a young age while being tormented by people who were 3-4 times their size. It is a mistake to assume that a person is weak because he was abused and "lucky" for overcoming it. I know what it takes to survive it, and it involves far more courage and determination than most people could imagine.

- Faith

My contention is that someone like Amy is not inherently resilient. And that this is a severe handicap.
I recognize that you do not agree with my belief, that not everyone has the ability to rebound from trauma.

Here's a study that discusses resiliency in people who have been traumatized, and the genetic links that have been found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/magazine/30abuse.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=556898caf83cc09d&ex=1304049600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Thank you for the link. I will put together a post on relisiliency.

- Faith

As the Blog Editor here, I feel it necessary to let readers know that we will not tolerate baiting or harassment of our bloggers. I realize that everyone here has very strong feelings and convictions about issues discussed in these blogs but I must request that you keep it civil or find some other place to vent about what bothers you.


Again, I will not tolerate the harassment of my bloggers.

There is no doubt in my mind that Amy is loved by her family, and I appreciate her mom's willingness to speak about their struggles on her blog. Showing Amy the respect a young adult needs- such as not forcing your way up to her apartment which would have been tempting to me, and not going to talk to her boss which the controlling part of me would have wanted to do also- is a gentle way to help her toward adulthood.

Anyway, I just thought I'd chime in and say I agree with Faith's take on the situation and am pulling for Amy's family 100%.

(((((((((((Faith))))))))))))

I don't know your story, Faith, but the part you've shared hear is horrific.

I doubt that I would maintain the civility that you have in your responses to some of the comments here.

I'm still learning how to let go of responsibility for my adult kids' choices. They have skated on some very thin ice at times.

If you parent an adult child whose deicsions are unthinking responses to intense compulsions, your find two things. First, you can enable the adult child, and keep them stuck is a highly disfunctional life, or you can detach with love, you do not do what they must do for themselves. The person who spends all their money foolishly will notice hunger, the person who has to live on the street because the rent didn't get paid, will notice that also. Second, you realize that reaching their bottom, as Faith talks about, is their only possible salvation, and not all adult kids will make it, survival is not a guarantee. This is not tough love, it is about caring enough to not do what you could, because it will deprive them of the only chance they have. This is not life the way any parent would want it to be. John

"Anyway, I just thought I'd chime in and say I agree with Faith's take on the situation and am pulling for Amy's family 100%."

Thank you. :0)

++++++++++++++

"I doubt that I would maintain the civility that you have in your responses to some of the comments here."

I am very interested in discussing issues and hearing other points of view, even when I do not agree with them. That being said, I expect to be treated respectfully in the process, just as I am respectful of others. I am much more likely to change my views on a position if the focus is on the issue rather than on me or another blogger. :0) Mudslinging does nothing but dig everyone's heels in deeper.

+++++++++++

"First, you can enable the adult child, and keep them stuck is a highly disfunctional life, or you can detach with love, you do not do what they must do for themselves."

YES! YES! YES! I will discuss this more in my next post when I share some of what I have been through with a close relative who was an irresponsible adult as well as a trauma survivor. I and other family members kept her stuck in so much dysfunction for well over a decade. When we stopped bailing her out, she learned how to take care of herself. She stopped being a "helpless" person and started taking charge of her own life. I am so proud of how far she has come. I only wish we had not dragged the drama into her thirties because it would have saved both her and me a lot of grief.

Thank you everyone for your comments!!

- Faith

I'm very happy that you've done well.

But I don't recall Nancy writing about you. I believe that she was writing about her daughter, Amy. Is there scientific evidence that shows that because you did well, Amy, and every other traumatized child in the world will too? If there was, we wouldn't even be here.

The "evidence" that we have is the experience of thousands of abuse survivors from all walks of life who have reacted in all sort of ways to trauma. Just as in any group, there will be some who succeed and some who fail. My point is that all have the ABILITY to succeed: It is their CHOICE to make the effort to succeed that makes the difference.

I am not saying that Amy will either succeed or fail. What I am saying is that, if she succeeds, she will do so by CHOOSING to succeed. To assume that she will fail is to disregard the strength she has shown in surviving the abuse in the first place. In order to have the opportunity to succeed, she must be given the freedom to either succeed or fail. She is an adult: This is up to her.

Look at smokers, alcoholics, people with eating disorders, or any other group that struggles. (Many of these people are also abuse survivors.) Yes, it is hard to overcome our pasts, but we can do it because many others have also done it. The difference between a successful person and a failure is CHOICE.

For those of you who question whether an abusive past can be overcome, I suggest you check out some of the message boards for adult survivors of childhood abuse. Read their stories, and learn from their experiences. You will be amazed at the strength of the people on those boards.

On another note -- I am a little surprised by the tone taken by those of you who disagree with me. I respect your right to disagree, and I welcome alternative points of view. It is the sarcasm you use that is bothersome, as if there really is a group of scientists sitting around studying only me and comparing me to every single abused child on the planet. If you truly have a lot of respect for people who have suffered from abuse, and if you have read the very personal and painful history that I have shared in my comments, I would have expected less sarcasm and a little more respect toward someone who, like your own abused loved one, has been through h@#$ and lived to tell about it. Whether you receive or reject my message itself, I have EARNED being shown respect, considering all that I have overcome in my life. At no point have I been sarcastic or rude toward anyone who disagrees with me. Feel free to make all of the points you want, but I would appreciate losing the sarcasm.

- Faith

My underlying message is this:

No abuse survivor is a lost cause. Every abuse survivor has the power within himself to choose to heal and lead a productive life. Do not assume that your adult child will fail and keep him dependent upon you. Instead, show him that you believe in him enough to give him the opportunity to learn from his mistakes and succeed.

I am having a very hard time understanding what is so upsetting about this message. To me, it is quite empowering.

- Faith

I couldn't agree more, Faith.

Perhaps those who fear their child won't "succeed" by "normal" standards are looking for a back door even before the perceived "failure" occurs? Perhaps some parents want to use the abuse as an excuse, much like the abuse survivors themselves do? Otherwise, why is it so difficult to grasp the concept that it is devaluing someone to assume they are doomed to be dependent and nonfunctioning forever? Or worse yet, to feed the mentality that the world OWES them big time? I can't think of too many thought patterns that are more defeating and paralyzing than to think everyone else owes you and you are not responsible for your life at all.

"I can't think of too many thought patterns that are more defeating and paralyzing than to think everyone else owes you and you are not responsible for your life at all."

I agree.

All abuse survivors start out with numerous negative internal messages, such as "you cannot succeed" or "you are unloveable." Healing involves dismantling these negative messages and replacing them with the truth. One truth is that the world does NOT "owe" you, and you CAN live a productive life despite the way your life began.

In fact, abuse survivors who have done the hard work of healing lead some of the most rewarding lives imaginable. I did not work this hard just to make the pain lessen -- I did it so I can feel passionately about life and savor it. This is why I feel such a drive to speak out to and on behalf of fellow abuse survivors. I want every abuse survivor to know that they can live an even more meaningful life than those who have not known abuse. The abuser robs the childhood, but only the survivor can rob adulthood.

- Faith

Faith, one of the saddest things about my experiences with Amy has been having to watch her throw away her childhood, day by day by day by day. I often pointed this out to her ... how she wasn't going to get this day back, or yesterday, or the day before. I LOVE life and it KILLS me to see her so completely waste hers. With respect to that, perhaps had she grown up in a family with less zest for life, it WOULD have been a better fit. I struggle with anyone not living life to the fullest.

I agree with Nancy. Life is for LIVING, not just existing. We all have great potential within us and it is tragic to see it wasted.

Although this issue was addressed privately in the past, it is now forcing me to take stronger measures. People who bait, harass or feel the need to make uneducated and unfair judgments of any of our bloggers will be banned from participating here at AdoptionBlogs. We do capture the IP accounts of everyone who posts here and those who choose trollish behavior will have their AdoptionBlogs accounts canceled and will be banned from ever registering here again.

If you have an ax to grind, this is NOT the place to do it. If you have a grudge against somebody in the adoption community who has done you wrong in the past, I am sorry, but our bloggers are not the appropriate people to take your anger out on.

"The abuser robs the childhood, but only the survivor can rob adulthood."

Faith, from the sounds of it, you are not just a survivor, you are a conquerer!

I found the whole quote from my friend, who works with juvenile offenders, most of whom come from horrid backgrounds...

"I have always used victim vs. survivor in talking with my students. The counselor said to add another and that is conquerer. Victim is what you are when something is happening out of your control and for a little bit right after. If you stay there you become stuck, do not work things through, and do no not grow. If you work it through you move from
victim to survivor. Survivor is the one who says I can do it, I will move forward, etc. Conquerer is the next level. I will not only survive I will beat it or at least learn from it. I will grow from it. I will do everything I can to not only deal with it but to find the "gift" aspects in it. He convinced us that there is a gift hidden in everything." ~~D.C.

Interesting topic... you know, Faith, I read your blog and expected to fully agree with everything you've written here. However, I cannot. I am having trouble seeing "baiting" or harassment from these other blogger comments that disagree.

I think this issue is so close to your heart (and I am so sorry for the tragedy in your own life...) that you may not be able to hear correctly on this particular issue.

I am not favoring the word "luck" being used here, but I think I understand the meaning behind it. Not everyone is as strong as you. Some victims of abuse will stand up and make good choices, others will crumble. I have one daughter who's strength and faith amazes me, another who is a "victim" in every sense of the word. Will she be able to stand on her own when she is 18 (and I have not yet read Nancy's posts)? I don't believe so.

Blessings,
Nicole

"Faith, from the sounds of it, you are not just a survivor, you are a conquerer!"

Thanks, Mariah!! I really like your friend's quote.

- Faith

"I am having trouble seeing "baiting" or harassment from these other blogger comments that disagree."

I do not believe they are "baiting" or "harassing" me, either. Those words come from my editor's comment, and I did not ask her to post it. If you will scroll through everything I have written, I have not accused anyone of doing either.

What has bothered me is the sarcasm and underlying hostility. For example...

"Is there scientific evidence that shows that because you did well, Amy, and every other traumatized child in the world will too? If there was, we wouldn't even be here."

could have been said as, "Perhaps you are an exception and not every abuse survivor has the same strength."

Do you see the difference? My rewrite is focusing on an issue -- the strength of abuse survivors as a whole -- rather than making me sound foolish for believing that I, personally, should be the scientific standard for the planet. I love to debate ISSUES, but some of the comments are not about issues: They are about ME. I am not the issue.

I admit that the use of the word "lucky" is triggering to me, causing me to feel a surge of anger and not focus as clearly on the message. This is why I asked that it not be used in relation to me again. I am grateful that everyone has respected this boundary. Thank you. :0)

I know that the word "lucky" is not intended to be rude (and might actually be intended as a compliment). However, all abuse survivors have "triggers" -- which are things that cause us to have emotional flashbacks. That word is one of mine.

"Not everyone is as strong as you."

Wording it this way does not trigger me. While "luck" and "strength" might seem the same to many people, it is quite different to me. Luck means that I sat around doing nothing, and my life just happened to fall into place with no effort on my part. Strength means that I worked my tail off to build my emotional muscle. Can you see the difference?

"I have one daughter who's strength and faith amazes me, another who is a "victim" in every sense of the word. Will she be able to stand on her own when she is 18 (and I have not yet read Nancy's posts)? I don't believe so."

Please read my next post. It talks about my close relative who was in the same boat as your daughter. She was not ready to stand on her own at 18, either. Unfortunately, because family members assumed she could not stand on her own indefinitely and continued to funnel money her way, this lingered into her twenties and then her thirties, bringing children into the picture along the way. It was not until all of us loved her enough to believe in her ability to stand on her own that she did.

I appreciate your comments, Nicole, and I thank you for disagreeing with me in a respectful way. I can "respectfully disagree" with people (and do quite frequently) as long as they are respectful back. :0)

Take care,

- Faith

The "baiting and harassment" comment was mine. It seems we have several individuals that are making their way through certain bloggers' blogs and actually harassing them.

My previous comment was a warning to those people, not to any specific individual who commented here.

Please do not confuse my comments with those of the blogger - we are two completely different people with different jobs to do here.

Yes, I see the difference.

I appreciate your reply, and want to add that this morning (while up with a cold and a fussy foster baby :o) I finished reading the other posts referred to above. After reading THOSE comments- well, harrassment might be a more fitting word after all. My word, what is wrong with people?

Blessings,
Nicole

Thanks for reading the associated posts and for understanding. It really is tragic that people like that feel the need to lash out at and judge perfect strangers.

Hope you're feeling better soon :-)
-Lisa

Nicole -- I want to thank you as well. I also appreciate your feeling comfortable enough to respectfully disagree with me. I do want to encourage open dialogue on my blog. I hope both you and the baby feel better soon.

Lisa -- Thanks for your comments, too. :0)

- Faith

Faith, I apologize. I admit that I became too caught up in a situation that has nothing to do with me (i.e. Amy's). I always seem to be a softie for the underdog. I just struggle when I read words (I love her) and then read descriptions of actions that to me say the exact opposite. Actions that if displayed to just about any other person would be considered extremely rude. Nobody here tries to speak for Amy or even give her the slightest benefit of the doubt. I guess I shouldn't either.

Fenyimom--it's a losing battle. Give it up.

I think what many of our gentle readers are missing is the RAD factor. Reactive Attachment Disorder is not cured with a hug, or even a million hugs. Reactive Attachment Disorder is a very real and very serious issue faced by many (both those who have the disorder and those who take on the very difficult task of trying to help those with the disorder). Nancy has dedicated her life to helping those with RAD and their loved ones.

At first, I thought that some of the parenting methods for RAD were a bit strong for my liking, but after doing considerable research on the condition, I came to realize that those with RAD have been (pardon the expression) re-wired by their experiences and condition and do not react as the average person would to outward displays of affection and love. In fact, outward displays of affection and love to some with RAD are extremely uncomfortable and even painful for them to deal with.

Contrary to what our gentle readers may believe, Nancy is not being overly hard on Amy. By most parenting standards it would seem that way but when you understand the condition involved, you'll understand it is all she can do to help her daughter. She is parenting Amy in the only way that Amy can understand.

Imagine if you will, being the mother of a child who reacts to affection the same way that most children will react to a spanking and you will understand just a tiny bit of what RAD parents like Nancy go through.

"Faith, I apologize."

I accept your apology. :0) I appreciate your passion and your drive to "stand up for the underdog." I, too, root for "underdogs." :0)

"Nobody here tries to speak for Amy or even give her the slightest benefit of the doubt. I guess I shouldn't either."

I believe that I AM speaking up for Amy. Amy is very much like my loved one who I posted about on How to Teach an Irresponsible Adult Adopted Child Responsibility. I LOVE this relative of mine, and truly want to do what was best for her. I sent her money for years (into her 30's) to supplement her choices. It was when I chose to respect her enough to see her as being capable of making good choices that she made positive changes in her life. To me, believing in her ability to make good choices IS "giving her the benefit of a doubt."

It's all in how you view the situation. If you believe that my relative, Amy, or any other irresponsible adult is incapable of making good choices, then you will believe that funding their irresponsibility is a good plan. However, if you truly believe that people like Amy have the capacity within themselves to make good choices, then you will see that giving them the freedom to make their own choices is respectful and standing up for them. I know irresponsible adults in their forties who continue to "need" financial support from other to get by. This does not stop on its own -- it only gets worse.

Have a good day!!

- Faith

"At first, I thought that some of the parenting methods for RAD were a bit strong for my liking, but after doing considerable research on the condition, I came to realize that those with RAD have been (pardon the expression) re-wired by their experiences and condition and do not react as the average person would to outward displays of affection and love. In fact, outward displays of affection and love to some with RAD are extremely uncomfortable and even painful for them to deal with."

Your term "re-wired" is absolulutely correct. The brain of a person who has suffered ongoing trauma is wired very differently from a person who has not suffered trauma.

Yes -- expressions of affection and love can be painful. It has taken me most of my life to be able to receive a hug. To this day, if I do not know one is coming, I stiffen up. I have to mentally prepare myself for the touching. Even though I know a hug is intended as a loving gesture, it is uncomfortable for me except for when it is initiated by my son.

- Faith

Lisa, in your readings, I'd encourage you to include "Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control" by Heather Forbes and Bryan Post. It's an eye-opener, a paradigm shift, in fact, from what Nancy believes. I am part of an internet group of parents who are using these methods to be the parents they want to be while at the same time healing their children. None of us are perfect and the method is not magic, but it works!